My friend Nepaliguy1982

 Well, may be not interfaith discussion I do not follow any religion,

I have studied in personal capacity and I find that there is no evidence of God. But I am open to all possibilities, if there comes evidence beyond reasonable doubt about the existence of god I won’t hesitate to follow the religion, it is as simple as that.

On the contrary science seems more logical and progressive. So our discussion may not be inter faith discussion.

Any way

Regarding the existence of god

Islam says it is the beginning….. that is it my friend, Islam (and devoted followers of other religion) can not go beyond what their religion says, on the other hand  those who are not enslaved by their belief can think beyond. If someone goes beyond what his religion says it may be considered infidelity and may be punishable, he may go to hell after death. This Fear caps the forward thinking. Our brain is capable of thinking beyond religion, Present society also allows it, and it is not against law BUT the FEAR caps it.

Whereas in science it is ok to question, till date scientist say that time began with BB. Lots of people already asked (including scientist) what was before BB, I also ask same question).

And asking such question is not crime, it is not punishable and you won’t go to hell questioning BB theory, such is the freedom here. And, this freedom does not harm anyone. Why live in unnecessary fear?

In North Korea you are not allowed to question the leadership, if you question you know what happens. If you study history you will find what happened to ppl who questioned leadership in early stage of communism in China, Cuba, then Soviet Union, Cambodia and many other dictatorships. But you can always question Barak Obama, you won’t be punished. This freedom lures ppl to US. Where ppl can think and try things beyond contemporary norms.

Your belief is stopping you to understand when I asked if most powerful, shapeless god can exists out of nothing then why BB can’t happen out of nothing.

This same logic applies to your second answer. Your belief says “god is the beginning” and there ends your brain power on that subject. You are not allowed to look for other possibilities.

Whereas in science, some one proposed the existence of God particle (Higgs Boson particle) in 60s) Scientist started to look for it and after almost 50 yrs and spending Billions of Dollars they found it.

Trust me, if there is god it will be scientists who will find it in years to come

Now, for your third answer

Your hint is god created BB; therefore BB can’t be before god.

 Kind of like when a dog chasing its own tail. 

The problem of your reasoning and other devoted religious ppl in that matter is of circular reasoning. You think conclusion (god) is true therefore reasoning must be true. I am doubting the conclusion (god, religions, including Islam) itself therefore logic leading to religion and god is automatically doubtful. That means they are not beyond reasonable doubt

If you can produce physical proof of conclusion (god) circular reasoning is good. Till date science says BB is the beginning but there are already ppl proposing what was before BB (not the god though) and this process will stop only when there is physical proof of conclusion or proofs beyond reasonable doubt. Then only ppl will stop asking question “What was before that”.  How long will it take? No one knows and I don’t care.

So saying “BB is the beginning” so “what could there be before beginning”?  is not reason or logic. Ppl will question BB until there is physical proof that there was nothing before BB or if there are proofs beyond reasonable doubt that there was nothing pp, will question BB and it is Ok to question and scientist have already proposed different opinions what was before BB.

Therefore my friend circular reasoning works only when there is physical proof or proof beyond reasonable doubt. There are lots of doubts about the existence of god; there is no physical proof that is why in such case circular reasoning does not work.

If you know MS excel, It is like asking the formula to include the answer cell also in calculation. In such case answer can never be computed.

Have you ever asked yourself where the universe came from? Why anything at all exists instead of just nothing?

My friend, have you ever asked yourself where god comes from? Why god at all exists instead of just nothingness? (Sorry, you are not allowed to ask such question because someone almost 1400 yrs, or 2000 yrs or 3000 yrs ago said it exists by itself).

My friend, in science we ask such questions that is how BB theory was developed and evidence were collected and unlike religious ppl, scientists question BB too and it is not considered taboo.

You choose the idea “impossible infinite universe” Scientists also question this and there is already new idea. The Idea of multiverse or many bubble universes. It dies in one place but another bubble universe start in another place.

It’s like flu virus. Till date scientist have not found permanent vaccination to it.  If you have flue in 7 days (even if you take medicine) you will be free from virus but virus appears in another person. And it changes with time so the flu shot does not work in new strain viruses. That is why every year they have to collect all the strain and make vaccine. Many RNA viruses can change into different antigenic shift within days. So they are different than their ancestors. That’s why it is difficult to make vaccines. There are other factors involved too.

So one event dies another event appears, for general audience it seems continuation of the past events but when you go deep you will find totally new beginning.

Answers are there because there are questions, if there is no question there will be no answer. So if you prohibit to ask question then all different possibilities will die before they are conceived.

That is what religious leaders are doing, not allowing to question because a) that new answer might  take away the power they are enjoying (and you know how some ppl feel when they are not in power) b) new finding may render them idiot (and you know no one want to be idiot). So that is why religion prohibits ppl from asking question and giving choices. They are just “Either with me or against me type”

So , one of the concept is: bubble universe dies in one part, all the events associated with it dies there but at the same time another bubble universe appears somewhere else. Scientists have developed the concept of Multiverse.

Thanks god (wink, wink) unlike religion we are allowed to question scientific findings otherwise science would have stopped progressing long ago.

The word "beginning" means "the point in time or space at which something starts". If we say God is the beginning than there is nothing before Him

Again, circular reasoning here.  “Nothing before him” is true only when existence of conclusion (god) is true. For the ppl who are questioning your conclusion (god) the answer “nothing before him” is not valid.

Your answer will be valid only if a) there is a physical proof of existence of god or b) there are proves beyond reasonable doubt

Since there is no physical evidence (you told god is shapeless, there is no image, we cannot see) of God and b) the evidence which are presented in favor of presence of god is not beyond reasonable doubt.

But surely that doesn’t make sense. Out of nothing, nothing comes.

Science says there was not this universe before BB, BB is the beginning of this Universe. There are many ideas floating among scientific community regarding what was before BB. Timeline for this universe as we understand began with BB.

My friend, BB theory is not about creation of the Universe it is about the evolution of universe from singularity.

Like we human are evolved from unicellular organism (not created from unicellular organism) , This universe of ours is evolved from singularity.

And, yes off course you are allowed to ask what was before Singularity? It is not forbidden to ask such question in science.

Is Big Bang theory the only model consistent with evolution of universe? No, it's just the most popular one.

BB theory suggests that there was no time and space there was only singularity. Time and space existed inside the singularity and singularity started to expand (this expansion of singularity is called BB in popular term.). It was not the fireball like explosion but it was like expansion of balloon when you force air into it. This expansion is still continuing, that’s why scientist say universe is still evolving.

What is singularity (with reference to BB)?

Singularity is a stage where finite matter is subjected to intense gravitational pressure; the pressure is so high that it squeezed finite matter into infinite density. Once the singularity started to expand the pressure was released and matters started to appear finite again. There are other concepts too but this is the most plausible one.

So the cause of evolution of universe is the BB or expansion of singularity.

God already justified His messenger and defended Him. 

Circular reasoning again

There were 124,000 prophets from God. 

Koran mentioned 29, Hadith says 124, 000 , In this case I might be wrong, I take back my remark on it

That was the difference in his message. It is a known fact that every language has one or more terms that are used in reference to God and sometimes to lesser deities.

But Hindus knew about this almost 2000 yrs before. Also if Allah in Islam and God in Christianity is the same god then in the same area it was made known to ppl almost 500 yrs before.

In 200 yrs time the message from Rigved may have reached Middle East. Ppl were trading travelling even at that time. Saying one god as new message sounds more like reinventing the wheel.

No need to reinvent the wheel it is already there

 And finally, may be

Mohammad might have leadership skill. By knowing his leadership skill Gabriel ( a person who knew about Rigved and Bible well, might have wanted to tell Mohammad “look ppl here are worshiping nonsense, actual is this, one god. Choose any of gods which ppl are worshiping now and get rid of rest”.

Since the God Allah already existed as a senior god in pre Islamic religion. Mohammad chooses Allah and got rid of all junior gods.

Off course he could not ask ppl you worship Allah only because I am saying so, ppl won’t obey so he might have pretended to be messenger to influence this idea. Even then ppl in Mecca resisted him. 

May be this might help

My friend ----:
The reason why i called interfaith is because i believe atheism/ agnosticism is a faith. I also feel there is no compulsion for a human being to accept the truth.
Yes in the quran there are only 29 prophets actually mentioned by name, they are the major prophets but in hadith and by what prophet mohammad said, there were about 124000 total prophets sent to earth, at different points throughout time.
The Qur'an names 29 prophets by name while hadith says 124,000 prophets were there so there is no contradiction in the message. Qur'an just names those 29 prophets. Qur'an however does not says that's all. I hope myself clear.

Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be peace) died as a poor person while the people of Mecca were ready to give him wealth and make him their leader if he had stopped his preaching. He was not after worldly things. He was visited by the same angel Gabriel who visited prophet Jesus (upon whom be peace) and prophet Moses (upon whom be peace).

“My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level.” [Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc. 1978, p. 33]

 

There is this universe which has space. Think about what would happen if there was no universe and no space. How could this space disappear when the space exist. According to wiki, 30,000 years ago, the sewage system in current day Indus Valley (somewhere in Pakistan) was more advanced than what it is today. God did not exist 30K years ago.

Only Christians regarded the earth was flat and was created few thousand years old. Scholars like Ibn Tayymiyah in 1100 BCE debated with Christians in past saying the earth is round and we do not know for sure when the heavens and the earth were created. On one of the sayings of prophet Muhammad (upon whom be peace), he said Almighty God wrote our sustannance 50,000 years before the heavens and earth were created. So to say God did not existed 30,000 years ago is simply a wrong statement.

Vox day says:
"Still, even the most admirable of atheists is nothing more than a moral parasite, living his life based on borrowed ethics. This is why, when pressed, the atheist will often attempt to hide his lack of conviction in his own beliefs behind some poorly formulated utilitarianism, or argue that he acts out of altruistic self-interest. But this is only post-facto rationalization, not reason or rational behavior."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAPqwOV8zn8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBRk2nfB9zo

Nepaliguy and newguy are you guys planning to share the 70 virgins among the two of you?

Who told you we would get 70 virgins? Fox News

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/23/fox-news-less-informed-new-study_n_1538914.html

Newguyintown

If someone brings Ubuntu Linux and tells this is his new version of Linux, can we go ahead and accuse him he copied it from CentOS or SuSe Linux?

Would that be fair? I think it won't, please correct me from wrong!

Nepali dai let me share my story with you:

Interfaith debate just cant get better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKfRsd2qcek

facebook123,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsn3zIsztvI

facebook123,

dude.. this was the worst argument and possible the worst example that u could provide. you can't just compare religion with computer software.. according to your new is good argument.. you claim that all religion are made up and if u think just as we upgrade to new software, we should also join new religion then u should probably look into joining scientology.. since that's the newest religion out there.. the rules and principles that applies for an operating isn't the same as that of religion.. ur definition of god seems more like batman, who with every movie and in every comic has different iteration.. if so why pray allah but not batman? 

Fountaindew: I pray to one God. I do not pray to Muhammad. Why would i pray to human being and degrade myself when i know he is not my sustainer? I pray to the same God of Ram, Krishna, Buddha, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (may peace be upon all the prophets).
Siddhi Baba once beautifully said: "Sab ka Malik Ek" and that is very true. I used to pray to human beings before knowledge came to me. There is no one who is free from making mistakes. I am no exception.

We correct our mistakes correct, so i did too.

This is what i believe now. I believe there is only one God who has no partners. When i pray i face towards Kaaba and recite Quran.I do not pray to Muhammad. I do not imagine God when i pray. I just ask His forgiveness and do not pray our loud as i know He is closer to my jugular vein. I do not worship to cow or idol. I do not prostrate to human beings. I worship to one God.

Say, This is my way, I call to God (i.e to the testification that none has the right to be worshipped except God alone, who has no partner) upon certain knowledge - I, and those who follow me. I declare God free and far removed from all that they associate as partners with Him, and I am free of those who worship anything else along with Him. <Qur'an 12:108>


---: Thank you for the reply.  The reason why i brought Linux in our discussion is actually i like Linux and inter-faith dialogues. If you go to the history of Linux, it was invented because it Linus Trovalds could not afford a computer with Unix Operating system. There is no co-relation between an operating system and the religion. I completely agree with you on that. Shabir Ally from Muslim side and Dr. William Lane Craig from the Christian side are my favorites.

Having said that, your accusation to Islam being a new version of Rigved, Akkadians civilization, Sumerian civilization and Mesopotamian civilization is not correct.
Any created thing that starts has to stop unless divine will is otherwise. Prophethood started from Adam and it had to stop by the prophethood of Muhammad. There were 124,000 prophets altogether. So your claim that there can be no such as thing called final messenger would refute in itself.
Let's look on the history of Islam and see if Islam predicted something and it did not happened. It has not happened.
I know some groups have done that and compromised the beliefs. In Islam, we never had to compromize our beliefs not we had to change our scripture.
Only Supreme being can reveal something that is free from human errors, do we agree with this?

The Millerites in the 1800s predicted the end of the world. When it didn't happen as they had predicted, they lost some members, but the faithful regrouped, tweaked their theology, and started proselytizing even stronger in order to correct the disconfirmation of their beliefs. Today we have the Seventh Day Adventist religion, going strong, as a result of that failure.

Look at the Jehovah's Witnesses. They predicted the end of the world in 1914, and when that didn't happen, they changed it to 1925. When that failure occurred, they did the same thing as the Millerites. They lost some members, but they adjusted their theology, claiming that the Second Coming had happened as they predicted, but in heaven, not on earth. They simply altered their theology . . .

The Islamic theolgy is same as it was at the time of prophet Muhammad. Muslim scholars never believed the world is flat or the prophet never prophesicized something and it did not happen. http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm

On that light, i would like all you to discover Islam by going to the source Al-Qur'an.

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