Friends,

I am using this space for making a personal announcement that is very much a part of my Sajha life and which my well-wisher Sajha mates have been inquiring for several months already.

Well, my mini-novel Chaytna Nasakeko Chithiis finally published and a website dedicated to promote it is up and running.

- http://www.dkhadka.com/chithi

I have a long list of Sajhaites to thank. First and foremost, Echoes for an excellent web design and Shree for valuable guidance to web-illiterate person like me. Gokul-jee for a wonderful preface for the book which, let me give a preview, starts with the story of how it all started right here in Sajha some years ago.

I am donating the proceeds from the book to Help Nepal Network. And I have to thank Shirish for making that possible and helping me out in too many things.

I am also grateful to anonymous Sajha artists and models for their precious cooperation during my initial search for a design for the book.

Then all initial readers of the story for their encouragement and following up inquiries regarding its publication.

So, basically, in Sajha had my book it's birth pang and it would not have seen this day without Sajha.

I have been telling to all that Sajha has been a rewarding experience for me. This book is a living proof among many others I can produce.

Thank you Sajha mates ! Thank you Sajha !

Nepe

- http://www.dkhadka.com/chithi

"....I was testing (of course, fictionally) whether an "effortful love" can lead to "effortless love" or at least if they can exist in a duality. In that sense, I was scrutinizing J. Krishnamurti's notion of love."

Thank you, Nepe jee.

I got the point.

Yo Labastaro-jyu,

I wanted to share with you some of my old postings where I have shared my thoughts on the passionate love. It was a fun for myself re-visiting those postings.

Nepe

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Thread: TRUE LOVE--REALITY OR MYTH??
- http://www.sajha.com/sajha/html/openthreadall.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=24671#171388

You can not [completely] fall in love unless and until you enter into the realm of self-forgetfulness. Because self-consciousness renders you in a selfish state and is therefore antagonistic to [true] love. A complete love is, therefore, a meditative state and a person completely in love can no longer report the reality objectively. Person not in love does not know how love is for obvious reason. So basically there is no way to know whether true love is real or a myth.

पिउँनेहरु ब्युँतेकै छैनन्
कोसित सोधुँ स्वाद मायाको ?

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Thread: LOVE
- http://www.sajha.com/sajha/html/openThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=24483#169455

...कुरा के भने, लामो समयसम्म म शंशयवादी (skeptic) थिएँ रुमानी पिरिमको हकमा, अझ नास्तिक नै भने पनि हुन्छ । पिरिम नै त नभनुम, पिरिमको प्रचलित, लोकप्रिय, सांस्कृतिक, साहित्यिक अवधारणासंग हो । यी लोकप्रिय अवधारणाहरुको चर्चा गरिरहन आवश्यक छैन, यो थ्रेडका विभिन्न पोस्टिङहरुलाई सर्सर्ती पढे पुग्छ ।

मेरो अवलोकनको वास्तविक जीवनका प्रेम र प्रेमका लोकप्रिय सिद्धान्त बिचको गहिरो खाडल (gap) नै मेरो शंशयको जन्मदाता थियो ।...

...अधिकांशत: पिपलको बोटमुनि बसेर लामो ध्यान गरे पछि र केहि स्वाध्यायनमा माथा खियाए पछि मलाई प्राप्त भएको प्रेम-बोध संक्षिप्तमा यस्तो छ :

(१) रागात्मक प्रेम (passionate love) आधारभौतिक (distinct, fundamental) वा एकसरो (homogenous) भावना होईन, बरु अन्य विभिन्न आधारभौतिक भावनाहरुको मिश्रण (blend) हो । मनोवैज्ञानिकहरु यसको पुष्टि गर्छन्, त्यसैले व्याख्या नगरिराखम ।

(२) हरेक प्रेम-सम्बन्ध (relationaship) मा चारवटा स्वतन्त्र (separate) सम्बन्ध-सुत्र (bonds, channel) हुन्छन् । यी चार सुत्रले चार प्रेम-लोकको निर्माण गर्दछन् ।

यी चार प्रेम-लोकको अस्तित्वको अज्ञानता नै प्रेम-दु:खको (शंशय, मतिभ्रम, असन्तुष्टी आदिका कारणले उत्पन्न हुने दु:ख) कारण हो । यसैले प्रेमको चार सम्बन्ध-सुत्र र चार लोकबारे ज्ञान हुनु अतिआवश्यक छ ।

के के हुन् त यी चार च्यानल/लोकहरु ?

यी हुन्:

(i) A को B प्रतिको मौलिक (original) प्रेम
(ii) B को A प्रतिको मौलिक (original) प्रेम
(iii) A को B प्रतिको जबाफी (reciprocal) प्रेम
(iv) B को A प्रतिको जबाफी (reciprocal) प्रेम

यी केहि स्वतन्त्र र केहि अन्योन्याश्रित चार च्यानल/लोकहरुको सार्वभौमिक सत्तालाई स्वीकार र यथोचित सम्मान गर्न सक्नेले प्रेममा कहिले दु:ख भोगनु पर्दैन ।

प्रेमम् शरणं गच्छामि !

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Thread: LOVE
- http://www.sajha.com/sajha/html/openThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=24483#169691

>If you love someone, Set her free...
>If she comes back, she's yours,
>If she doesn't, she never was....

प्रेमको लोकप्रिय किन्तु अपूर्ण अवधारणाहरुको यो एउटा राम्रो उदाहरण हो । यो अवधारणा "मौलिक" उपखण्डको प्रेमभूमिमा सिमित छ र यसले "जवाफी" उपखण्डको प्रेमभूमिलाई चिन्न ईन्कार गर्छ ।

प्रेमीको हरेक क्रियाले "जवाफी प्रेम" लाई तत्काल, प्रत्यक्ष र बलियोसंग र "मौलिक प्रेम" लाई कालान्तरमा, अप्रत्यक्ष र कम बलपूर्वक प्रभाव पार्दछ भन्ने कुराप्रति माथिको कथन पूर्ण अनभिज्ञ रहेको छ ।

प्रेमीले आफ्नो प्रेमीद्वारा आफुलाई छोड्न सक्नु र छोड्न नसक्नुलाई अलग अलग अर्थमा बुझ्दछन् भन्ने कुराको ज्ञान छैन यसमा, यसैले अपूर्ण छ यो ।

परन्तु, Nepalipoonte ले पोस्ट गरेका ठट्यौलीहरुमा भने कतै कतै यो ज्ञान निहित छ र समग्रमा, प्रेमको यौगिक स्वरुपको पुष्टि भएको छ- ठट्टा नै सहि, प्रतिक्रियाको विविधताद्वारा ।

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Thread: LOVE
- http://www.sajha.com/sajha/html/openthreadall.cfm?StartRow=21&PageNum=2&forum=2&threadid=24483#168770

मेरो प्रेम सम्बन्धी चिन्तनसंग सर्वाधिक नजिक हुने हिन्दी गीतको पंक्तिहरु हुन्

प्यार किया नहि जाता, हो जाता है
दिल दिया नहि जाता, खो जाता है

कृत्रिम (गरिएको) प्रेम प्रेम होईन । तर फेरि प्रेम शुन्यमा उम्रने भावना पनि होईन । शुन्यमा उम्रने प्रेम प्रेमको आंशिक तत्व मात्रै हो । प्रेम उर्वर भूमिमा उम्रन्छ ।

गरिने प्रेम आफैमा प्रेम नभए पनि त्यसले प्रेमको भूमिलाई उर्वर बनाउन भने सक्छ । वास्तवमा प्रयासमा शुरु भएका सफल प्रेमको रामकहानी मा प्रेम-उर्वरता संबर्धनका कैयौं खण्डहरु (chapters) हुन्छन् ।

यसरी प्रयासमा प्रेम संभव हुने हुनाले, माथिको गीतको बोलबाट अलिक गलत अर्थ पनि निक्लन सक्ने सम्भावनामा भने सावधान रहनुपर्छ ।

प्रेमको राहत हुँदैन, तर बिउ हुन्छ । यसको जगेर्ना गरौं । यहि नै मेरो दशैंको शुभकामना सम्पूर्ण प्रेम-प्रत्यार्शीहरुलाई !

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Thread: LOVE
- http://www.sajha.com/sajha/html/openthreadall.cfm?StartRow=41&PageNum=3&forum=2&threadid=24483#169196

निर्माणज्युका शब्दहरुमा पाकिस्तानका स्वर्गिय कवि फैज अहमद 'फैज' को प्रख्यात विद्रोही पंक्ति "है और भी गम दुनियाँ मे महब्बत के सिवा" को प्रतिध्वनि सुन्छु ।

फैज साहब को प्रसिद्ध राष्ट्रिय गीत "दुआ" का यी आरम्भिक पंक्ति उत्तिकै प्रिय लाग्छन मलाई,

आएं हाथ उठाए हम भी
हम जिन्हे रश्म-ए-दुआ याद नहि
हम जिन्हे सोज-ए-मुहब्बत के सिवा
कोई बुत कोई खुदा याद नहि

(आउ, हात उठाऔं हामी पनि
हामी, जो प्रार्थनाको अर्को तरिका जान्दैनौं
हामी, प्रेमको आगो बाहेक
कुनै मुर्ति, कुनै ईश्वरलाई मान्दैनौं)

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You can not [completely] fall in love unless and until you enter into the realm of self-forgetfulness. Because self-consciousness renders you in a selfish state and is therefore antagonistic to [true] love. A complete love is, therefore, a meditative state and a person completely in love can no longer report the reality objectively. Person not in love does not know how love is for obvious reason. So basically there is no way to know whether true love is real or a myth.

पिउँनेहरु ब्युँतेकै छैनन्
कोसित सोधुँ स्वाद मायाको ?
===================

Nepejyu,
isn't your definition too abstract to be real? i mean i am not a spiritual person, not all of us are for that matter. so aren't we able to feel true love? let's analyze this from pragmatic point of view. if true love is like achieving "buddatwa", then it's not for me :P

LooTe

"...I was testing (of course, fictionally) whether an "effortful love" can lead to "effortless love" or at least if they can exist in a duality. "

Nepe Jee,
Just curious!!!!

1.I am curious and wondering how are you testing it? What efforts have you applied to test it?
2. What I see from your statement that you have created two kinds of love (1) effortfu love (2) effortless love. Is your effortless love same as what J.krishnamurti has talked about all his life? If not, what is it? What are the differecnes that you see between these two kinds of love that you created?

Loote-jyu,

So basically there is no way to know whether true love is real or a myth.

That was my point with some give and take pun.

As for love, I would go by quantity rather than quality. Not a simple quantity, but a composite quantity of several recognizable components of love- attachment or passion, intimacy and commitment, for example.

In any case, yes, a total love is very rare thing. However, the good news is that we all recognize even the incomplete love as love. There is no social or otherwise penalty for that. So, let's enjoy whatever there is. Hoina ta ?

Nepe

Yo Labastaro-jyu,

My answers to your questions are in my book ;-)

May I send you a copy ?

It will be my pleasure. Really.

Nepe

Dear Nepe jee,

The words that you have used such as 'effortless love' and ' total love' sound much like what Osho and Krishnamurti have talked about all their life and they have talked about it in detail.

your response to my previous inquiry indicates that you have not achieved 'Buddhaood yet. If your definitation of 'effortless love' or 'total love' is different from Osho and j.krishnamurti's discoveries, would you define it here in brief? If it is the same, with what authority you claim that you have discovered what 'total love' is?

I will defenitely buy your book. My inquiry is not a challenge.

Nepe jyu,

very interesting!

to me love is more of giving than taking or expecting to receive anything in return. like they say, "the highest reward for a man's toil is not what he gets for it but what he becomes by it", i have always believed that true love is something which inspires and encourages you to emerge out as a better human being.

but there are multitude of definitions of true love or love itself for that matter. your definition of total love is rather initimidating to me. hehe. i would never ever be able to reach to that level so it is out of question right away. it sounds good and reads good in the paper though :P

that apart, i have been following your shayari series, except for few episodes. your political views about nepal greatly resonate with mine. i have found myself in awe by your literary prowess time and again. just felt like letting you know. keep up your good work :)

LooTe

म त यो धागोमा आएकै रहिनछु .....छुट्टै रमाइलो, छुट्टै मिठास...

Really appreciated Nepe-daju

Miss,

Pleasure to have pass by.


***** ***** ***** ***** *****

Loote-jyu,

Thank you for your kind words.

As for my own notion of love, it might have lost in the stacks of several discussions above, however, I do not view it as an ELEMENTARY feeling/emotion. It is, as modern psychologists have deconstructed (http://www.bsu.edu/web/dlb/T/projects/topicexamples/Triangular%20Theory%20of%20Love_files/frame.htm"> color="red"> Triangular Theory of Love for example), a composite total (blend) of many other elementary emotion/feeling/instinct that gives us pleasure.

If that is indeed the case, then it is only natural for it to be rare to have all the components in optimal/ideal doses.

So by a total love, I meant all components of love in optimal/ideal doses. So, one a lighter note, one does not FALL IN this kind of love, he/she rather GETS DROWNED.

***** ***** ***** ***** *****

Yo Labastaro-jyu,

You have asked very interesting questions. I probably won't be able to explain much in this limited space. Also, my knowledge about the views/teachings of philosophers/Gurus you mentioned is limited. So I won't be able to comment on their views authoritatively.

However, I would like to say this regarding the question of the "authority" of knowledge. As a trained scientist, I do not accept the notion of authority at all. There is no authority other than a scientific rigor itself for any kind of claimed knowledge.

Let's put it this way, I go to philosophers to get the questions and doubts. I go to science to get the answers and remove the doubts.

As for the notion of love, as I also explained to Loote-jyu, I view it as a blend of several ingredients rather than a single ingredient. I will have to make a rigorous list to make my point clear. Nevertheless, I would say, some of the things J Krishnamurti discarded by saying it is not love is actually an ingredient of love (The "triangular theory of love" can be a good starter). There are other inconsistencies and limitations in J Krishnamurti's thought on love. As for other self-made Gurus, I believe their views are more inconsistent, less objective and many of them do not pass scientific rigor. However, as I said I am not saying that authoritatively because my knowledge about them is very fragmentary and limited.

Hope you understand my skepticism and limitation.

Nepe

Sorry for the messed up embedded link. Here's it again,

Triagular Theory of Love
- http://www.bsu.edu/web/dlb/T/projects/topicexamples/Triangular%20Theory%20of%20Love_files/frame.htm

.

For those interested in scientific exploration into romantic love...

Dopamine: Neurochemistry of Love

J Comp Neurol. 2005 Dec 5;493(1):58-62
Romantic love: an fMRI study of a neural mechanism for mate choice.
Fisher H, Aron A, Brown LL.
Department of Anthropology, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, New Jersey 08901

Scientists have described myriad traits in mammalian and avian species that evolved to attract mates. But the brain mechanisms by which conspecifics become attracted to these traits is largely unknown. Yet mammals and birds express mate preferences and make mate choices, and data suggest that this "attraction system" is associated with the dopaminergic reward system. It has been proposed that intense romantic love, a cross-cultural universal, is a developed form of this attraction system. To determine the neural mechanisms associated with romantic love we used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) and studied 17 people who were intensely "in love" (Aron et al. [2005] J Neurophysiol 94:327-337). Activation specific to the beloved occurred in the right ventral tegmental area and right caudate nucleus, dopamine-rich areas associated with mammalian reward and motivation. These and other results suggest that dopaminergic reward pathways contribute to the "general arousal" component of romantic love; romantic love is primarily a motivation system, rather than an emotion; this drive is distinct from the sex drive; romantic love changes across time; and romantic love shares biobehavioral similarities with mammalian attraction. We propose that this attraction mechanism evolved to enable individuals to focus their mating energy on specific others, thereby conserving energy and facilitating mate choice-a primary aspect of reproduction. Last, the corticostriate system, with its potential for combining diverse cortical information with reward signals, is an excellent anatomical substrate for the complex factors contributing to romantic love and mate choice.

- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16255001&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum

FYI,

Back to shayari moment after an unannounced vacation...

21st Edition of "Samayik Shayari"

Transcript:
- http://www.dkhadka.com/home/21_Majrooh_111206.htm

Audio (13 MB):
- http://www.dkhadka.com/audio/21_Majrooh_111206.mp3


Highlights:

● A ghazal by famous Hindi Cine lyricist Majrooh Sultanpuri
[A poignant line from it -"Mujhe dekh mujhe, merii tasveer na dekh"
(Look at me, not at my picture !)]

● Music: Prem Joshua and Chintan Relenberg's fresh piece "Mysore
Monsoon"

● Political commentary on SPA-Maoist agreement, what future might
hold for GP Koirala and NC and Anti-Maoist paranoia.

Enjoy !

Nepe

Little bit more about the shayar featured (however the real intention is to push the thread up ;-) )

The oft-quoted sher by Majrooh Sultanpuri has been

मै अकेला ही चला था जानिब-ए-मंजील मगर
लोग साथ आते गये और कारवाँ बनता गया

(म एक्लै निक्लेको थिएँ, गन्तव्यतिर लाग्दा
बिस्तारै मानिस थपिदै गए, लस्कर बन्दै गयो)

Also very apt to the situation I was describing with the other sher of Majrooh.

अरु नि सुन्न पाम्।(खोज्न गाह्रो परेर धागोलाई माथि धकेल्या के।)

तुझ्से मेरी जम्तिनही फिरभी दिल मुलाकात चाहाता क्यो है?
अनजाना अनदेखा चेहेरा फिरभी दील भरआता क्यो है?
कभी चमक्ता ये महफिल तेरा आज सुना सुना सा क्यो है?
अर्सोके बाद लोटके आयाहु तु गुमनामसा क्यो है?

:)!

दर्शन् हजुर !

Perhaps the opposite complements, that's why. And when the opposites complement each other, there will be left nothing but a void. And isn't the void what Buddha said is ultimate ? hehehe.

बहारों को चमन याद आ गया है
पर सहरा होने के बाद आ गया है

आदाब हुजुर सबकुछ खेरियत से तो है?
मुल्कमे अभी सियासत ठिकठाक तो है?

हम बताने आयहै आपको बुद्ध ने क्या पाया।
आपकी जान्नेकी चाहत बरकरार तो है?



Matter antimatter annihilation!

:)

आप्नी समझ से बुद्धका रास्ता बताने आए है।
पढ्ने वालों लुटलो हमे हम लुटने आए है।

सबको थोडाकुच दे सकु-----ये ख्बइस हकिकत बने।
सायद आपकी खामोसी हमारी ताकत बने।।

:)

Dear friends,

I am sorry I had to leave last time without completing my words. This time I am determined not to leave Sajha until I give you the outline of Buddha's teaching.

Last time I spent lot of time to emphasis that we need Discipline, Concentration and Wisdom to learn or to be trained. This time I will continue from this point.

Nepe Dai,
Darshan!

Hope everything is wonderful with you and your research is going well. My best wishes are with you. I am happy to know that you got pretty much agreed with what I have posted. It didn't wonder me because you are a wise man and I posted the truth.

I found that you said enlightenment could be hallucination, I respect your skepticism. To be very frank, I know nothing about enlightenment in reality. I have read about it and heard of it. I am convinced that it can be achieved but it far .. far far.. (far)^1000000 away from me. I just have श्रुतमयी ज्ञान (heard of it) and little bit of चिन्तनमयी ज्ञान (intellectual understanding) of enlightenment. However, your understanding of enlightenment differs immensely from my understanding. As I told you earlier, I will not talk about enlightenment this time, I want to stick to this. I will let you know later what I have intellectually understood about it.

So lets leave enlightenment alone for now.

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